Every Bicyclist in Wisconsin should be aware of the attitudes that some drivers have towards us. The following are comments made publicly after a fellow bicyclist recently was killed by the negligence of a young driver. The driver was clearly at fault as he made a left in front of the bicyclist who was traveling straight. Moreover, the driver (who was only 16) admitted to drinking alcohol the night before.
Here are some of the disturbing comments that show the local attitudes towards bicyclists. Although I find several of the posts very offensive and ignorant, I post these so that local bicyclists like myself will be aware of the attitudes of those on the road around us. If these people are willing to state these opinions in such a serious situation, it is clear they have no value for our lives when we are on the road.
I bike a lot and I couldn't count how many times I've been buzzed by motorist who refuse abide by the law and give bicyclist adequate clearance. I look at this as the responsibility of the police to enforce laws to protect bicyclists. They are as culpable for this death as the driver of this truck.
FedupinMadisonForumiteJoined: 07/11/2009Total posts: 1
Sorry this gentleman was killed. This has nothing to do with this accident but I do not beleive I have ever seen anyone on a bike come to a full stop at a stop sign. If you want to be treated equally as a licensed driver then obey ALL traffic rules![/img]
whatajokeForumiteJoined: 07/03/2009Total posts: 36
i cant remember the number of time i was driving my car and was buzzed by a cyclist and he almost got run over because he thought he was bigger then me. didn't use his brain or common sense. one tire can kill you. a bike cant kill a car think about what you do on bikes dont always blame the car most time its your fault when you dead does it matters whos fault it really is you dead. cant change that. might be able to punish the driver but you still dead.
maybe they should make all bikes have lights on them so you can see them better. cars have to have driving lights now a days so people can see them better. maybe they need to do that for bikes to.
if your going to be riding a bike on highways where speeds are 55 and min speed is 45 you should have flashing lights like all other vehicles, or big slow moving vehicle signs on the back, bike dont have to follow the law. hello. look up what any other vehicle has to do if it drives down the road more then 10 mph under the top speed and tell me bikes have to follow the law.
one last thought on the subject who really pays for the road the cyclist or the car and truck hmm i think its car and truck who pay for the road if bikes want to help maybe they should have license and insurance to. maybe they could have classes to teach them how to ride a bike. and maybe a a user tax sence they dont buy fuel and put money into the road building fund
RD1953ForumiteJoined: 02/16/2009Total posts: 97
I can't count how many times cyclists have run stop signs in front of my car; or, run into traffic off of the sidewalk in front of my car; or, weave in and out between lanes of traffic, or between cars in two lane traffic, because they're in a hurry!!
It works both ways!!
The sad thing is that this kid hasn't been driving enough, in southern Wisconsin, to learn that you have to be very defensive against idiotson cycles!!!
Cemetaries are FULL of people who had the right away and thought that meant you don't have to be defensive! It's NOT what you do - Its what other people do that will kill you!
RD53
Wally KalbackenForumiteJoined: 01/14/2005Total posts: 1178
Just one time, wouldn't you like to see a bicyclist come out on top of one of these bike-car or bike-truck collisions?
carmaForumiteJoined: 09/23/2006Total posts: 326
ok, did not say who ran a stop sign [if there was one]... to bad this had to happen. they do make horns to be put onto bikes, sometimes lights are ineffective in broad daylight especially if the sun is in the direction you are driving.
horsey1ForumiteJoined: 11/12/2008Total posts: 4
This is a such a tragedy. I do have to agree with fedupinmadison though. Having lived near the bike trail and arboretum for many years I have witnessed very few bikers come to a complete stop or even stop at all. Bikers, like motorists, should abide by the rules of the road. If a police officer sat at the intersection of Wingra and Mills and ticketed every bicyclist that blows that stop sign, Madison would probably be doing much better on their budget issues...
penguin67 wrote:
Also cyclists are NOT pedestrians and should not be riding across intersections at lights in crosswalks. False.
penguin67 wrote:
Pedestrians have rights too and they DO NOT have to yield to a cyclist-in the crosswalk or on the side walk. True. Rules for riding bicycles on the road:
Do not wait until you reach the crosswalk, then stop and try to ride from a stop across other traffic. If you need to cross as a pedestrian, leave the travel lanes, then get into the crosswalk, walking or riding your bicycle like a pedestrian travels, not fast, and with pedestrian signals.
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Sick_Of_It
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Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:04 pm Post subject:
Not to blame the biker, but these people who bicycle or walk on country roads are playing with fire and have a lot more moxie than I do. Too many hills, narrow roads, and people driving cars too fast is a dangerous combination. There are hundreds of miles of bike trails in Southern Wisconsin, this is where these riding groups should be.
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East Sider
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Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:12 pm Post subject:
Wow, all of these holier than thou drivers just drive me crazy. How many of you cheat at stop signs and roll through without a complete stop, or how many of you speed on the beltline (it's just a suggestion, not a real law, isn't it?)? You are so sanctimonious it makes me sick. NO driver follows all of the laws. I am a biker, also a driver. When I bike, I come to a stop at stop signs, if there are cars present. I never blow through them. I ALWAYS stop at lights. And, this had NOTHING to do with this accident - somebody made a left turn in front of a biker. Leave your attitude and address the real problem - drivers who think since they are bigger than bikers they don't have to pay attention.
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Local53544
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Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:03 pm Post subject:
Turns out we know this kid who was driving. Kid says the biker came "from out of nowhere," too fast to react. Also that bright sunlight was a major issue in him seeing the biker good enough and soon enough (and maybe the biker seeing kid's signal light?). Also, at least one other biker with the group admitted the gentleman was flying awfully fast down that hill on Clay Hill Road. While awaiting further news we googled and found this at http://groups.google.com/group/scspinners/browse_thread/thread/54baa4faeb5177f8/9b1f452282869f60#9b1f452282869f60 apparently from one of the bicyclists organizing this ride: "There have been multiple complaints about riding speeds, group riding, saftey etc. This is your chance to come and find out how you can be a better/safer group rider and possibly find a solution to the 'speed' issue in our club." Needless to say, it's an absolute tragedy that a gentleman has lost his life in this way. And you have to appreciate the empathetic comment from the Belonger relative above, being thoughtful to think of the teen driver -- because he will carry this with him for the rest of his life, forever changed. Just so sad, all around. Our thoughts and prayers go out to the Belonger family.
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r3VOLutionary
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Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:07 pm Post subject: Re: police need to enforce the laws
geeman9000 wrote:
I look at this as the responsibility of the police to enforce laws to protect bicyclists. You're so naive. The police in this area are overpaid janitors arriving at the scene in time to mop up the blood and take away the bodies. If they enforced laws they'd be patrolling. When was the last time you say a car actually patrolling a road, pulling over speeders and stopping tailgaters. No, they'd rather sit around and wait for a "call for service" to come in then head out for another janitorial session.
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krausj
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Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:10 pm Post subject:
Sick_Of_It wrote:
Not to blame the biker, but these people who bicycle or walk on country roads are playing with fire and have a lot more moxie than I do. Too many hills, narrow roads, and people driving cars too fast is a dangerous combination. There are hundreds of miles of bike trails in Southern Wisconsin, this is where these riding groups should be.These country roads are ideal for bikers as you can get away from the heavy traffic of the city and frequents stop signs. Since cars have many other roads such as the interstates and state highways that have high speeds of 65mph and 55mph the speed limits of these narrow and hilly country roads could be lowered to 35mph and 25mph for improved safety.
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geeman9000
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Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:12 pm Post subject:
so just because you see bicyclist doesn't come to a stop a stop sign, means it goes both ways, so you have the right to kill a pedestrian or bicyclist with your car or truck. I think this person needs some time in the slammer and their license revoked.
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carrillo97
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Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:17 pm Post subject:
If this person was only 16 years old, the driver's manual should have been fresh in his mind, if he even read it. I have a habit of slowing down, if there is no room to move over yet, and wait to pass a person whether on bike, foot, or car on the side of the road. It is common sense to pass a person and give them room, what if that person falls off their bike and fall in your path. At least give them the courtesy of sufficient room for "error".
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concerned citizen
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Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:37 pm Post subject:
the cyclist was killed by a motorist "left hooking" him, by turning across his path. the motorist did not yield, and give the right of way to the cyclist. to all you cold-hearted cyclist-hating commenters, would you write the same drivel if this 16 year old kid had killed a motor cyclist? what about if he had turned in front of your mother, while she was driving her old car with no air bags? the 16 year old motorist broke the law, and killed someone. Who cares if you once saw someone else riding a bike do something illegal. Are you telling me that you have never seen a motorist doing something illegal? do you drive the speed limit, for instance? have a heart. show some compassion.
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m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y
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Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:37 pm Post subject:
16yo in pickup Vs. 61yo on bike. This is just too ironic to pass up. I'm sure someone else has pointed this out as I'm quite sure I'm not the only heartless bastard that posts here. Shouldn’t this have happened the other way around? 61yo in the truck and the 16yo on the bike? I'd lay odds the 16yo wouldn't have died from running into a truck. How fast was he going anyway? Being that was 61 probably contributed, by way of fragility, to the fatality. If you don’t know your age, be the guy in the oversized metal cage. I don’t have a lot of sympathy to offer here anyway. Biking around a city to get from place to place is one thing but riding around on country roads with no shoulder for recreation should be a crime just for being stupid. Being out and around rural roads is just plain jackass, even for deer.
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dabige
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:03 am Post subject:
whatajoke wrote:
cars have to have driving lights now a days so people can see them better.Not true in every state. Wisconsin also happens to be a state where daytime driving lights are not required. However, many manufacturers are making them standard on every vehicle they produce to streamline their manufacturing process and reduce the number of different components to make. Even if there were lights, the sun could have been in a spot either directly shining at or reflecting off of something such that the biker was hard to see. What I would like to know is how fast the biker was going. If the pick-up was making a left turn such that the biker struck the right side of the truck, the cyclist should have had time to see the truck and make an evasive maneuver...e.g., slow down or swerve to the right to avoid the truck. Given the small amount of information in this story, it's hard to say with any amount of certainty, but to me, it sounds like the biker wasn't paying enough attention to his surroundings. The article also fails to mention how this intersection is controlled. Because of that, you can't really assign blame to who violated who's right-of-way.
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ConstantTraveler
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:26 am Post subject:
Sick_Of_It wrote:
Not to blame the biker, but these people who bicycle or walk on country roads are playing with fire and have a lot more moxie than I do. Too many hills, narrow roads, and people driving cars too fast is a dangerous combination. There are hundreds of miles of bike trails in Southern Wisconsin, this is where these riding groups should be.I hear this all the time. Here's the problem. The trails in Wisconsin, while nice and recreational, are also flat, and paved largely with crushed limestone. These big riding groups you see, and the others who are really geared up, are likely training for a big ride later in the year. I believe the gentleman who died was part of a riding group out of Waukesha who was training for a big ride in the fall. Then there's AIDS Ride (which I'm training for), Ironman, Horribly Hilly 100 (which took place already this year), etc. Like it or not, these rides take place on these rural, shoulderless, hilly roads. Sticking to Wisconsin's bike trails will not help you train, because they weren't built to replicate the conditions of these courses. The only solution would be to outlaw all these main rides from country roads (and therefore also take away the need to train on them), and I just don't see that happening, because in the end, in virtually every state, with exceptions of Interstates and major freeways, bicycles are legally allowable on all roads.
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m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:57 am Post subject:
Threats are not allowed on the forum
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krausj
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:46 am Post subject:
HartlyNat wrote:
But as somebody who drives country roads every day, responsibly I hope -- and growing up in a rural area -- it IS shocking to come up around a hilly bend, obstructed all the more by summertime vegetation, and just about slam into a bicycling individual or group that you're not expecting. And that's at a normal rate of speed.If you cannot see around these hilly bends and then almost run into slower moving vehicles then you are driving too fast. You could just as easily collide with a disabled stationary vehicle or slow moving farm equipment. The speed limit of these rural hilly roods with poor visiblity should be lowered to 35mph or 25mph. If you need to drive fast use the interstate and state highways. With your extensive experience driving these country roads it should no longer be a suprise that they are also used by cyclists and therefore you need to drive slower.
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Spooner
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Location: Madison
Age: 31
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:33 am Post subject:
[quote="m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y] Okay here’s the deal, I don’t give damn if Whalen is on some jackass iron-man rout. Keep off it. It has no shoulders and people need to use it. Find a hill with a shoulder and go up and down it till you turn blue. I’m going to cover the whole length of Whalen in broken glass till I see some kind of organized reprieve from the constant assault the Speedo twits put on it daily. Either get together with all the other moon-bats and put a shoulder on it or you're going to end up with flat tires during your corny iron-man game till you pick a new rout. [/quote] Wouldn't that be littering? Trying to make a point by breaking the law- that's intelligent. Not to mention, if someone flatted on your glass while going downhill and got hurt, that's intentionally causing harm. Yup, manson, you've got it all figured out. Littering and....Littering aaaaannnnd....
How many times has someone passed you going like h*** just to turn off 50 yds later....this poor guy died....truck couldn't wait a bit it seems....if he/she was wrong I hope they get years.
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ileed
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:44 am Post subject:
NOT good! Another biker killed by a left turn. Left turns kill a lot of bikers, this one happened to be self propelled. Those who peddle ate harder to see, smaller target, than the engine driven bike. I am a biker, Harley Davidson, and have survived this motorist trick move, when the biker reaches the point of no return. I think Mother Nature keeps the death rate the same, some are just harder to accept than others. If it was not an "accident", then it must have been premeditated.
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trout
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:19 am Post subject: Be responsible!
I am sorry to hear about the accident. I enjoy biking as well, but I also know that roads were made for vehicles and not for bikes. I take extra precautions when biking on roads especially hugging the shoulder when riding. Too many times I have seen bike riders on hilly and winding roads that ride right in the middle of the road. To all who bike ride the country roads be careful and responsible when out biking.
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rjrivard
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:36 am Post subject:
The driver "made a left hand turn in in front of him," (the cyclist). Ask yourself who's at fault. In the mind of some, is it the fault of the cyclist for simply being on a country road? Not having flashing lights? As a cyclist I also can't count the number of times a car has not come to a full stop. My informal unscientific study shows about 10-20 percent of drivers obey the law at stop signs and come to complete stops. The next time you roll through a stop sign, stop and think, does that justify the argument that a cyclist's death is somehow his fault because he blew a stop sign?
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human
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:18 am Post subject:
The lesson of this discussion is that it's always the biker's fault. If a biker blows a stop sign and gets hit by an SUV, it's obviously his fault. But I'm sure a biker would also get blamed if he stopped at the sign and the motorist behind him, was was blowing through the intersection, ran over him. If a biker rides down the road, in complete compliance with all the laws, and gets killed by a motorist turning left in front of him, it's the biker's fault. If bikes get hit on country roads, it's their fault for riding bikes on roads with 55 mph traffic. Except when someone wants to blame them for riding too fast down those same country roads. If bikers were sitting at a wayside, drinking from their water bottles, and an out-of-control car ran them over, I'm sure that would be the bikers' fault, too. Aren't motorists ever responsible for anything?
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ssquared
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:58 am Post subject: Re: police need to enforce the laws
Teufelhunden wrote:
geeman9000 wrote:
I look at this as the responsibility of the police to enforce laws to protect bicyclists. They are as culpable for this death as the driver of this truck.The police? What law did they fail to enforce? Making a left turn fron a public road onto a public road on a Saturday when the sun is shining? You mean that law? Isn't it obvious who is at fault here....Barack Obama and Joe Biden.
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RL
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:58 am Post subject:
This is so tragic. But I don't understand the purpose of all the finger pointing. The bottom line is that when you ride a bike on roads designed for cars traveling 55, you are taking your life into your own hands. It's a fact of life, not a civil rights issue. I grew up in Boston, so I understood at the very early age that biking on the road is dangerous, plain and simple. That's why I don't bike. The combination of naivete and self-righteousness that I've seen out here is disturbing.
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jimatmadison
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:27 am Post subject:
This is one of those where they shouldn't allow posts. A man is in the morgue, a kid feels terrible and possibly faces legal trouble, and everybody is yapping about their own personal beef. Most of these posts have nothing to do with this particular tragic incident. Those that do are generally premature (since the crash is still under investigation), or ignore the facts that have been released. Some of these posts are downright vicious, totally ignoring the tragedy of the situation. What kind of people joke about this or threaten to harm others in light of it? My condolences to the family. I hope none of you are reading this drivel.
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jefmol
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:51 am Post subject:
I'm sorry...first to the person who made some comment about cyclists not stopping at a stop sign and saying cyclists should follow the rules of the road?? What the article actually said was that the car turned left IN FRONT OF the cyclist...nothing about a stop sign. Which road rule claims it is LEGAL to turn in front of anyone or any thing...car, bike, person? I can't think of one. Secondly, to the person saying bikes shouldn't be on roads designed for cars going 55...most roads, particularly rural are not 55 and most cyclists, particularly cycling groups, like this one was, take great pains to map out routes with low vehicle traffic. Just because you are in the car does not give you the right to not pay attention and yes, follow the rules of the road. Most people who are driving are so busy talking on the phone, texting, changing the radio station or applying make up, they wouldn't notice a 747 parked in the middle of the road before they hit it. I wonder if the guy who drove past me yesterday on a 30 mph road going 65 who honked, yelled and threw a cup out the window was following the rules of the road. Who's the bigger idiot there? Me, for riding my bike, or that moron? And yes, I was riding on the shoulder. The issue isn't riding on rural roads, the issue is this driver turned in front of the cyclist...which is illegal and the fact that most drivers are inattentive and irresponsible to those around them; car, bike or pedestrian.
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8lords
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:17 am Post subject:
response to manson threats deleted
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lardheppus
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:29 am Post subject:
response to manson deleted
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cantfixstupid
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:32 am Post subject:
I can't imagine how this young man feels today - his actions took a life - could have it been avoided, probably, but the fact remains that accidents happen however frustrating and tragic they are. Bad things happen to good people, for all we know both of these folks are or were good people. I don't want to sound overly sympathetic here but some of you have already condemned this young man and assume that he has some sort of mountainess amount of hatred for bicyclists at the age of 16. Maybe thats not the case.
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Patio
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:40 am Post subject: Bicyclists must ride defensively
It's true, I bicycle and unless I'm crossing a 4-way street I do not stop at stop signs unless I have looked and see approaching oncoming traffic. But you better believe I am looking every which way possible before rolling or running that intersection. I would say with certainty I am more alert on the road as a bicyclist than generally when I drive, sad to say. The little guy always has to yield to the bigger guy, if you want to avoid injury or death that is. My experience with helmets is they can distort sounds of oncoming traffic and also can sometimes distort peripheral vision. I always feel less safe when wearing a helmet which is why I choose not to. They probably will not protect from serious head injuries as in the sad case of the gentleman striking the passenger side of the truck. The only way to avoid injury and death is to ride defensively to avoid hitting or getting hit.
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revisionz
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:49 am Post subject: speed limits
if your going to kick bicyclist off the road for stop signs, you're going to have to kick off 99.9% of car drivers for speeding.
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walley
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:07 pm Post subject:
I'm guessing the age of the driver had a lot to do with it. He probably misjudged how much time he had to make the turn. Quite pressing bikers rights crap geeman. Be aware of your surroundings and keep your head on a swivel.
revisionz wrote:
if your going to kick bicyclist off the road for stop signs, you're going to have to kick off 99.9% of car drivers for speeding.In other words, everyone but the blue haired grannies. Not a bad idea.
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lardheppus
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:40 pm Post subject:
m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y wrote:
It's hardly breaking the law when it's keeping the peace and saving dumbF lives. One of these days someone is going to just get run the hell over because someone will be sick of speedo bikers on whalen.Would that be premeditated murder, or vehicular homocide?
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geeman9000
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:54 pm Post subject: Bicycle rights are important.
If more people respected bikers rights, more people would bike, now more biking reduces health care costs, gasoline usage and global warming. Even the jerks who want to run bikes off the road and do not care about the sanctity of human life, probably would benefit if as they would pay less for gas for there gas guzzling SUV;'s during the summer travel months, have cheaper food to fill up there fat guts, as 20% of wisconsin residents are on publicly funded health care probably lower there taxes.
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brainstew8157
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Location: Monroe, Wisconsin
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:55 pm Post subject:
East Sider wrote:
Wow, all of these holier than thou drivers just drive me crazy. How many of you cheat at stop signs and roll through without a complete stop, or how many of you speed on the beltline (it's just a suggestion, not a real law, isn't it?)? You are so sanctimonious it makes me sick. NO driver follows all of the laws. I am a biker, also a driver. When I bike, I come to a stop at stop signs, if there are cars present. I never blow through them. I ALWAYS stop at lights. And, this had NOTHING to do with this accident - somebody made a left turn in front of a biker. Leave your attitude and address the real problem - drivers who think since they are bigger than bikers they don't have to pay attention.This is funny.... you wag your finger at people for cheating at stop signs and making rolling stops and then admit that you do it yourself. Another case of self-righteous "Do as I say, not as I do" kind of thing? Must be a politician.....
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dogg
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: police need to enforce the laws
ssquared wrote:
Teufelhunden wrote:
geeman9000 wrote:
I look at this as the responsibility of the police to enforce laws to protect bicyclists. They are as culpable for this death as the driver of this truck.The police? What law did they fail to enforce? Making a left turn fron a public road onto a public road on a Saturday when the sun is shining? You mean that law? Isn't it obvious who is at fault here....Barack Obama and Joe Biden.Failure to yield is against the law.
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lardheppus
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:14 pm Post subject:
I do hope the bicyclist is posthumously cited for failure to yield or inattentive driving (or whatever the authorities can think of) so the 16 year old will be able to get the insurance company to pay to repair his truck.
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whatajoke
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:14 pm Post subject: Re: Bicycle rights are important.
[quote="geeman9000"]If more people respected bikers rights, more people would bike, now more biking reduces health care costs, yea this happens cause most end up in morgue not hospitals i used to bike every where but this city has plenty of bike paths and so does the county use them unless you drive to work if your in big group and going more then 10 mph under speed limit in a big group you are a hazard on the road and if people run you over no one to blame but you own self righteous b hinds. cause sooner or later people are going to get irritated and try to pass and if something happens that causes him or her to hit you then yes i blame the bikes for going under the slow speed recommendation which if i recall can be given a ticket for driving to slow. but wonder why it is there fault. hello i like to see you take you bikes out to germany and ride on the autobahn . oh yea to the person who wrote they should change the speed limit the world does revolve around you the last time i looked in the encyclopedia... oops....... my bad just went and checked encyclopedia agin the earth is revolving around the sun now a days not you.
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RockHopper
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:15 pm Post subject: 16 year old drivers have a 1in5 chance of crash!
If car rental companies won't let 16-year-olds drive their cars because of the risk they pose, why should the state allow them on the roads? Driving age should be 25!
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m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: Bicycle rights are important.
geeman9000 wrote:
If more people respected bikers rights, more people would bike, now more biking reduces health care costs, gasoline usage and global warming. Even the jerks who want to run bikes off the road and do not care about the sanctity of human life, probably would benefit if as they would pay less for gas for there gas guzzling SUV;'s during the summer travel months, have cheaper food to fill up there fat guts, as 20% of wisconsin residents are on publicly funded health care probably lower there taxes.It’s hard to care about a life that doesn't care about it's self. And yours is a faulty premise as these Speedo people don’t bike for transportation. They bike for recreation and competition. That’s all good and dandy but when you're recreation is impeding people's ability to travel to places they need to be, there's a big problem. Maybe if more people didn't abuse their rights to adversely affect others than maybe we'd all have more rights.
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RockHopper
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:33 pm Post subject: Re: Bicycle rights are important.
m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y wrote:
[ It’s hard to care about a life that doesn't care about it's self. And yours is a faulty premise as these Speedo people don’t bike for transportation. They bike for recreation and competition. That’s all good and dandy but when you're recreation is impeding people's ability to travel to places they need to be, there's a big problem. Maybe if more people didn't abuse their rights to adversely affect others than maybe we'd all have more rights. It's hard to care about someone else's time that doesn't care about your safety. If we are going to get into weighing the "need" a person has to use the road, then I suggest we start with parents who are too lazy to get up early enough to get their child ready to bus/bike/walk to school who instead end up producing 37% of AM traffic congestion as they drop their kids off at school.
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lardheppus
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: Bicycle rights are important.
RockHopper wrote:
If we are going to get into weighing the "need" a person has to use the road, then I suggest we start with parents who are too lazy to get up early enough to get their child ready to bus/bike/walk to school who instead end up producing 37% of AM traffic congestion as they drop their kids off at school.That's a need. Children these days are too obese to walk to school.
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highlyopinionated
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:41 pm Post subject:
I'm guessing maybe this kid just didn't have enough driving experience to realize how quickly the biker may have been going. There's no reason to blame the biker though. The biker must have been going extremely fast though, you would think he'd have been able to see the driver wasn't waiting and been able to react a little better. It seems with his injuries, he still must have been going pretty quickly at impact.
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m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: Bicycle rights are important.
RockHopper wrote:
m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y wrote:
[ It’s hard to care about a life that doesn't care about it's self. And yours is a faulty premise as these Speedo people don’t bike for transportation. They bike for recreation and competition. That’s all good and dandy but when you're recreation is impeding people's ability to travel to places they need to be, there's a big problem. Maybe if more people didn't abuse their rights to adversely affect others than maybe we'd all have more rights. :roll:It's hard to care about someone else's time that doesn't care about your safety. If we are going to get into weighing the "need" a person has to use the road, then I suggest we start with parents who are too lazy to get up early enough to get their child ready to bus/bike/walk to school who instead end up producing 37% of AM traffic congestion as they drop their kids off at school.On biking on shoulderless country roads: in general Why should we care about your safety when you don’t care about your safety? By your same analogy we should do everything we can to ensure the safety of suicide bombers? When you bike for recreation next to several tons of steel, the safety issue is your's alone IMHO. It'd be totally different if you were trying to get yourself somewhere. Country roads aren't built for joy riding.
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krausj
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Bicycle rights are important.
[quote="whatajoke"]
geeman9000 wrote:
i used to bike every where but this city has plenty of bike paths and so does the county use them unless you drive to work if your in big group and going more then 10 mph under speed limit in a big group you are a hazard on the road and if people run you over no one to blame but you own self righteous b hinds. cause sooner or later people are going to get irritated and try to pass and if something happens that causes him or her to hit you then yes i blame the bikes for going under the slow speed recommendation which if i recall can be given a ticket for driving to slow. but wonder why it is there fault. The only roads with minimum speeds are the interstates were bikes are not allowed. The rules for bike use of roads are described at http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/safety/vehicle/bicycle/rules.htm Notice the frequent reference to "take the lane". I often use this technique on Sherman Avenue so that cars have to use the left lane to pass and don't pass too close in the right lane. This technique is also appropiate for country roads without shoulders.
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RockHopper
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: Bicycle rights are important.
m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y wrote:
On biking on shoulderless country roads: in general Why should we care about your safety when you don’t care about your safety? By your same analogy we should do everything we can to ensure the safety of suicide bombers? When you bike for recreation next to several tons of steel, the safety issue is your's alone IMHO. It'd be totally different if you were trying to get yourself somewhere. Country roads aren't built for joy riding.If I read it correctly, yours is a circular argument that ignores the reality that I, and many drivers care about my safety. Instead, you infer that I don't care about my safety because I am riding on roads with people who you believe don't care about my safety. However, if I read the Motorist's handbook correctly, it is everyone's obligation to care about everyone's safety - as such, your circular argument is finally brought to collapse upon itself. If you don't care about the safety of other road users, you have no business on the roads.
m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y wrote:
It'd be totally different if you were trying to get yourself somewhere. Country roads aren't built for joy riding.Country roads were built for farmers. If you are not a farmer you should not be driving your car on those roads unless you live on those roads. And in that case, you should really be living in a city unless you work at a farm.Last edited by krausj on Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jkramer
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: Bicycle rights are important.
[quote="krausj"]
whatajoke wrote:
geeman9000 wrote:
i used to bike every where but this city has plenty of bike paths and so does the county use them unless you drive to work if your in big group and going more then 10 mph under speed limit in a big group you are a hazard on the road and if people run you over no one to blame but you own self righteous b hinds. cause sooner or later people are going to get irritated and try to pass and if something happens that causes him or her to hit you then yes i blame the bikes for going under the slow speed recommendation which if i recall can be given a ticket for driving to slow. but wonder why it is there fault. The only roads with minimum speeds are the interstates were bikes are not allowed. The rules for bike use of roads are described at http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/safety/vehicle/bicycle/rules.htm Notice the frequent reference to "take the lane". I often use this technique on Sherman Avenue so that cars have to use the left lane to pass and don't pass too close in the right lane. This technique is also appropriate for country roads without shoulders.I'm copying/pasting from the DOT web site linked, because it's important stuff for many of the people on this forum to know. Take the lane You will fare better with other road users if you function like a legal vehicle operator, which you are. * Right turning motorists can be a problem, but taking the lane or more of the right portion of the wide curb lane can prevent this. Take an adult bicycling course to learn skills and develop confidence in traffic. * Left turning motorists are the cause of most adult bicyclists’ crashes. Motorists claim not to see the cyclist who is traveling in a straight path in the opposite direction. Bicyclists, when making your own left turn look over your left shoulder for traffic, signal your left turn and change lanes smoothly, so you are to the left side or center of the through lane by the time you reach the intersection. If a left turn lane is present, make a lane change to center of that lane. Do not move to left of that lane as left-turning motorists may cut you off. * Do not wait until you reach the crosswalk, then stop and try to ride from a stop across other traffic. If you need to cross as a pedestrian, leave the travel lanes, then get into the crosswalk, walking or riding your bicycle like a pedestrian travels, not fast, and with pedestrian signals. Lane positioning can be especially important in approaching a downhill intersection. Moving to the center makes you more visible to intersecting and left turning motorists in opposing lanes. * Going downhill, your speed is likely to be closer to traffic speeds or posted speed limits. Hugging the curb when there are visual barriers increases your chance to be struck by a bigger vehicle, or of hitting a pedestrian or sidewalk riding bicyclist. * Take the lane, be seen and see other traffic better if you are close to traffic speeds
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lardheppus
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:43 pm Post subject:
Since we're copying and pasting from the DOT website, how about this:
Quote:
Motorist reminders Bicycles are vehicles. They belong on the road. Cyclists need room to get around potholes, sewer grates and other obstructions. Leave at least three feet when passing bicycles, more room at higher speeds. Change lanes to pass any bicycle traveling in a narrow lane. Train yourself to scan for fast moving (it's hard to tell speed) bicycles and motorcycles in the opposing lane to you when turning left, and scan sidewalks and crosswalks for pedestrians and bicyclists using the sidewalk and crosswalk as a pedestrian. Always scan to your right side sidewalk before you leave a stop light or stop sign. And to the left and right side sidewalks when on a one-way street.
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Literate
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: Bicycle rights are important.
krausj wrote:
m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y wrote:
It'd be totally different if you were trying to get yourself somewhere. Country roads aren't built for joy riding.Country roads were built for farmers. If you are not a farmer you should not be driving your car on those roads unless you live on those roads. And in that case, you should really be living in a city unless you work at a farm.But who paid for those roads? Taxpayers. Much of it comes from the fuel tax, which farmers are exempt from paying.
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RockHopper
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: Bicycle rights are important.
Literate wrote:
krausj wrote:
m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y wrote:
It'd be totally different if you were trying to get yourself somewhere. Country roads aren't built for joy riding.Country roads were built for farmers. If you are not a farmer you should not be driving your car on those roads unless you live on those roads. And in that case, you should really be living in a city unless you work at a farm.But who paid for those roads? Taxpayers. Much of it comes from the fuel tax, which farmers are exempt from paying.68% of local road funding comes from property taxes - we all paid for those roads!
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joski
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:22 pm Post subject:
A vehicle going straight ahead has the right of way over one coming the other direction turning left. If another TRUCK had been coming down that hill at the legal speed limit, and crashed into the left-turning vehicle, both drivers might have died, but I doubt anyone would be making awful remarks blaming the driver coming downhill. As fast as the cyclist may have been traveling, I 'm certain he was not over the speed limit! I am absolutely appalled at many of the comments here. Many people have not even read the minimal facts of the story, and are just venting their usual knee-jerk rage against bicyclists.
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rc_collins
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:30 pm Post subject: Spring City Spinners are idiots!
Taking a look at the clubs own homepage shows you exactly why so many bikers are injuried... http://www.springcityspinners.org/ Nothing like a huge pack of asshats riding down the middle of the road and having a car behind them that wants to get around. FIND THE TRAILS! TAXPAYERS BOUGHT THEM FOR EVERYONES SAFTY!
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Literate
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:33 pm Post subject: Re: Bicycle rights are important.
RockHopper wrote:
Literate wrote:
krausj wrote:
m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y wrote:
It'd be totally different if you were trying to get yourself somewhere. Country roads aren't built for joy riding.Country roads were built for farmers. If you are not a farmer you should not be driving your car on those roads unless you live on those roads. And in that case, you should really be living in a city unless you work at a farm.But who paid for those roads? Taxpayers. Much of it comes from the fuel tax, which farmers are exempt from paying.68% of local road funding comes from property taxes - we all paid for those roads!Calm down! I don't disagree. But farmers also pay property taxes, I just wanted to point out that they don't pay the tax on gasoline and other other fuels they use on the farm. And that tax does help pay for the roads.
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rc_collins
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:34 pm Post subject:
lardheppus wrote:
I do hope the bicyclist is posthumously cited for failure to yield or inattentive driving (or whatever the authorities can think of) so the 16 year old will be able to get the insurance company to pay to repair his truck.I agree 100%. You damn bikers are idiots on these roads. Face it, they are hardly big enough to have 2 cars pass each other, let alone a giant pack of you jerks. Oh and most of you are jerks too. When i honk to let you know that I want around 1 out of 10 of you flip my off. FOLLOW THE LAW, JERKS! Wisconsin Statute 346.59 (2) The operator of a vehicle moving at a speed so slow as to impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic shall, if practicable, yield the roadway to an overtaking vehicle whenever the operator of the overtaking vehicle gives audible warning with a warning device and shall move at a reasonably increased speed or yield the roadway to overtaking vehicles when directed to do so by a traffic officer.
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krausj
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:37 pm Post subject:
The bikers are not riding in the middle of the road, they are in their lane. If the car wants to pass it can use the other lane just as if it was passing any other vechicle. Would you honk at a slower moving car and expect them to move off the road? If you need to pass use the other lane.
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lardheppus
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:43 pm Post subject:
rc_collins wrote:
lardheppus wrote:
I do hope the bicyclist is posthumously cited for failure to yield or inattentive driving (or whatever the authorities can think of) so the 16 year old will be able to get the insurance company to pay to repair his truck.I agree 100%. You damn bikers are idiots on these roads. Face it, they are hardly big enough to have 2 cars pass each other, let alone a giant pack of you jerks. Oh and most of you are jerks too. When i honk to let you know that I want around 1 out of 10 of you flip my off. FOLLOW THE LAW, JERKS! Wisconsin Statute 346.59 (2) The operator of a vehicle moving at a speed so slow as to impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic shall, if practicable, yield the roadway to an overtaking vehicle whenever the operator of the overtaking vehicle gives audible warning with a warning device and shall move at a reasonably increased speed or yield the roadway to overtaking vehicles when directed to do so by a traffic officer.Looks like you should bring a traffic officer with you at all times. Bummer about your off getting flipped. Looks like bikers don't have a monopoly on jerks and idiots.
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rc_collins
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:57 pm Post subject:
[quote="lardheppus"]
rc_collins wrote:
lardheppus wrote:
I do hope the bicyclist is posthumously cited for failure to yield or inattentive driving (or whatever the authorities can think of) so the 16 year old will be able to get the insurance company to pay to repair his truck.I agree 100%. You damn bikers are idiots on these roads. Face it, they are hardly big enough to have 2 cars pass each other, let alone a giant pack of you jerks. Oh and most of you are jerks too. When i honk to let you know that I want around 1 out of 10 of you flip my off. FOLLOW THE LAW, JERKS! Wisconsin Statute 346.59 (2) The operator of a vehicle moving at a speed so slow as to impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic shall, if practicable, yield the roadway to an overtaking vehicle whenever the operator of the overtaking vehicle gives audible warning with a warning device and shall move at a reasonably increased speed or yield the roadway to overtaking vehicles when directed to do so by a traffic officer.Looks like you should bring a traffic officer with you at all times. Bummer about your off getting flipped. Looks like bikers don't have a monopoly on jerks and idiots. [/quot You missed the "or" in the sentence didn't you... let me repost in an easy to understand manor. "The operator of a vehicle moving at a speed so slow as to impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic..." That is every bicycle on the road. ..."shall, if practicable, yield".... That means pull over and stop. "...the roadway to an overtaking vehicle..." Those are all the cars behind you. "...whenever the operator of the overtaking vehicle gives audible warning with a warning device..." when cars honk to tell you we are going around. "...and shall move at a reasonably increased speed..." car then are to speed up and pass. It isnt that hard. Basically you all need to find a safe place to be. It is much like downhill skiing. While there are some great hills in the area, I am sure it would be illegal for me to ski down a counrty road on a snowy day, now isn't?
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lobsterman
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:19 pm Post subject:
krausj wrote:
The bikers are not riding in the middle of the road, they are in their lane. If the car wants to pass it can use the other lane just as if it was passing any other vechicle. Would you honk at a slower moving car and expect them to move off the road? If you need to pass use the other lane.BS. These asshats ride around 2-3-4 wide and expect a motorist to know the bicyclists are there when we come over a hill. Morons. And another thing. Leave the douche jerseys at home.
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jkramer
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:20 pm Post subject:
If the name-calling doesn't stop, I will lock this thread.
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rc_collins
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:23 pm Post subject:
lobsterman wrote:
krausj wrote:
The bikers are not riding in the middle of the road, they are in their lane. If the car wants to pass it can use the other lane just as if it was passing any other vechicle. Would you honk at a slower moving car and expect them to move off the road? If you need to pass use the other lane.BS. These asshats ride around 2-3-4 wide and expect a motorist to know the bicyclists are there when we come over a hill. Morons. And another thing. Leave the douche jerseys at home.FACT!
RockHopper wrote:
m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y wrote:
On biking on shoulderless country roads: in general Why should we care about your safety when you don’t care about your safety? By your same analogy we should do everything we can to ensure the safety of suicide bombers? When you bike for recreation next to several tons of steel, the safety issue is your's alone IMHO. It'd be totally different if you were trying to get yourself somewhere. Country roads aren't built for joy riding.If I read it correctly, yours is a circular argument that ignores the reality that I, and many drivers care about my safety. Instead, you infer that I don't care about my safety because I am riding on roads with people who you believe don't care about my safety. However, if I read the Motorist's handbook correctly, it is everyone's obligation to care about everyone's safety - as such, your circular argument is finally brought to collapse upon itself. If you don't care about the safety of other road users, you have no business on the roads.No, it's quite simple. Your touting to care about your safety is a direct paradox with riding on country roads and for reasons unfounded by necessity. You must be some kind of crazy thrill seeker.Last edited by m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y on Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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krausj
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:43 pm Post subject:
lobsterman wrote:
These asshats ride around 2-3-4 wide and expect a motorist to know the bicyclists are there when we come over a hill. Morons.When coming over a hill with reduced visibility you need to slow down and be prepared to stop as anything could be on the road ahead. You may find slow moving farm equipment or a stopped truck. You should see clear road ahead as far as it takes you to come to a stop. If visibility is reduced because of curves and hills then slow down. The speed limit is the maximum speed but road conditions may require driving slower.
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lardheppus
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:14 pm Post subject:
rc_collins wrote:
lardheppus wrote:
rc_collins wrote:
lardheppus wrote:
I do hope the bicyclist is posthumously cited for failure to yield or inattentive driving (or whatever the authorities can think of) so the 16 year old will be able to get the insurance company to pay to repair his truck.I agree 100%. You damn bikers are idiots on these roads. Face it, they are hardly big enough to have 2 cars pass each other, let alone a giant pack of you jerks. Oh and most of you are jerks too. When i honk to let you know that I want around 1 out of 10 of you flip my off. FOLLOW THE LAW, JERKS! Wisconsin Statute 346.59 (2) The operator of a vehicle moving at a speed so slow as to impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic shall, if practicable, yield the roadway to an overtaking vehicle whenever the operator of the overtaking vehicle gives audible warning with a warning device and shall move at a reasonably increased speed or yield the roadway to overtaking vehicles when directed to do so by a traffic officer.Looks like you should bring a traffic officer with you at all times. Bummer about your off getting flipped. Looks like bikers don't have a monopoly on jerks and idiots. You missed the "or" in the sentence didn't you... let me repost in an easy to understand manor. "The operator of a vehicle moving at a speed so slow as to impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic..." That is every bicycle on the road. ..."shall, if practicable, yield".... That means pull over and stop. "...the roadway to an overtaking vehicle..." Those are all the cars behind you. "...whenever the operator of the overtaking vehicle gives audible warning with a warning device..." when cars honk to tell you we are going around. "...and shall move at a reasonably increased speed..." car then are to speed up and pass. It isnt that hard. Basically you all need to find a safe place to be. It is much like downhill skiing. While there are some great hills in the area, I am sure it would be illegal for me to ski down a counrty road on a snowy day, now isn't?The difference between skis and bicycles is that the law recognises the legality of operating a bicycle on public roadways, which incidently, the bicyclists helped pay for through their tax dollars. Feel free to ski on the roads. I won't stop you, in fact, I encourage it. BTW, you seem to have missed the "if practicable" part. Your idea of what's practicable and a bicyclist's might not be the same. They might also have different ideas as to what constitutes a reasonably increased speed. Do you also think farmers should pull over to let you pass the instant you honk at their tractor? They may also have different ideas as to what's practicable. edited to correct a minor glitch with the quoting. Thanks, Charlie. Last edited by lardheppus on Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:18 pm Post subject:
quote function plz... it's not that hard.....
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ezfast
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:39 pm Post subject:
I mostly drive but bike occasionally. As a professional driver I am daily appalled at the idiots out on the road both driving and riding bikes. My best advice is to drive and ride defensively at all times and expect the wildly unexpected.
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rc_collins
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:54 pm Post subject:
lardheppus wrote:
Do you also think farmers should pull over to let you pass the instant you honk at their tractor? They may also have different ideas as to what's practicable.I have never had to honk for a tractor to pull over. They realize that they don't own the roads and keep an eye out for traffic behind them. They pull over on the shoulder and slow down and let people pass when it is safe for everyone. Do me a favor and just look at the photo on top of http://www.springcityspinners.org Does that photo honestly look like a group of bike riders being safe? They are a pack with 4 across at one point. Also in the background is a car that I can only assume wants to pass. Nothing about that photo tells me that those cyclists care about the safety of themselves and the other motorized traffic on that road.
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lburt
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:13 pm Post subject: Stop blaming others and take responsibility...EVERYONE!
I write this as a driver, bicyclist and motorcyclist who is reminding himself that unlike everyone else who posts on these forums he is not a perfect driver. Almost every day I read about accidents, some pedestrian, some with motorcycle, many cars, some bikes, many of which in the last several days have ended in a death. With each of the stories are a litany of forum postings complaining that bikes cause accidents, motorcycles, cars, etc. I wish people would stop using every death as a reason to point fingers at other groups and stop guessing and speculating at the causes of any particular acciden. We all need to take an increased level of responsibility for our safety and the safety of others no matter how they are traveling. Probably the biggest factor that leads to accidents is just not taking the time to be careful and courteous enough to others. In most accidents people share the responsibility to some degree and if we all just care a bit more about what goes on, tragedies can be avoided. Please make a point to look just a bit harder for other travelers, slow down where appropriate, give someone a break rather than force an issue on the road unnecessarily.
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lobsterman
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:13 pm Post subject:
krausj wrote:
lobsterman wrote:
These asshats ride around 2-3-4 wide and expect a motorist to know the bicyclists are there when we come over a hill. Morons.When coming over a hill with reduced visibility you need to slow down and be prepared to stop as anything could be on the road ahead. You may find slow moving farm equipment or a stopped truck. You should see clear road ahead as far as it takes you to come to a stop. If visibility is reduced because of curves and hills then slow down. The speed limit is the maximum speed but road conditions may require driving slower.So I take it you slow to a crawl at the crest of every country hill then? Riiight...Of course you do.
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dabble
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:54 pm Post subject:
lobsterman wrote:
So I take it you slow to a crawl at the crest of every country hill then? Riiight...Of course you do.As a matter of fact, ever since that night when I was a kid and I crested a hill to find an accident twenty feet in front of me, I don't exactly slow to a crawl but I ease up and get ready to brake just about every time.
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lardheppus
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:28 pm Post subject:
rc_collins wrote:
Do me a favor and just look at the photo on top of http://www.springcityspinners.org Does that photo honestly look like a group of bike riders being safe? They are a pack with 4 across at one point. Also in the background is a car that I can only assume wants to pass. Nothing about that photo tells me that those cyclists care about the safety of themselves and the other motorized traffic on that road.It could be the car is associated with the group of cyclists. It's not uncommon on organized club rides to provide a sag wagon to pick up stragglers and assist those with mechanical failures. Then again, it could be aliens pretending to be a car so they can give the cyclists a rectal probe. It's really impossible to tell even with the picture blown up to ten times normal size. So, why is it that people get so upset over a few moments delay caused by cyclists that they want to kill people? Why are they in such a hurry?
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m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y
Forumite
Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: Stop blaming others and take responsibility...EVERYONE!
lburt wrote:
I write this as a driver, bicyclist and motorcyclist who is reminding himself that unlike everyone else who posts on these forums he is not a perfect driver. Almost every day I read about accidents, some pedestrian, some with motorcycle, many cars, some bikes, many of which in the last several days have ended in a death. With each of the stories are a litany of forum postings complaining that bikes cause accidents, motorcycles, cars, etc. I wish people would stop using every death as a reason to point fingers at other groups and stop guessing and speculating at the causes of any particular acciden. We all need to take an increased level of responsibility for our safety and the safety of others no matter how they are traveling. Probably the biggest factor that leads to accidents is just not taking the time to be careful and courteous enough to others. In most accidents people share the responsibility to some degree and if we all just care a bit more about what goes on, tragedies can be avoided. Please make a point to look just a bit harder for other travelers, slow down where appropriate, give someone a break rather than force an issue on the road unnecessarily.There was a time when a triple homicide would go completely untouched here. I like it better this way. If you don’t want to read people's discussions then go blind yourself with fire irons. ----------------------- a war refugee sought the master. he said, "you are wise and serene. teach me to escape the horrors of this world." and the master blinded him with fire-iorns. - the book of cataclysm.
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dproadie
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Joined: 12 Jul 2009
Total posts: 4
Gender: Unknown
Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:36 pm Post subject:
I am astonished by the response from the hate bike crowd (I don't hate bikes but...). This tragic incident has affected all involved including the ride organizers. I bicycle, motorcycle, and drive cars. I think that everyone should spend some time on the 2 wheeled transportation. It teaches you to be way more observant and defensive. The reality is that drivers don't see you (motorcycles are required to have lights and how many either hit or are hit by left turning vehicles?) Sure bicyclists screw up or break the law and a lot of times it is devastating. In this case it would appear that the driver is at fault (the investigation is not complete). He will probably be ticketed for inattentive driving or failure to yield and that will be it based on how similar cases have been handle here and in other States (remember this is Iowa County not Dane). Trying to defend the driver when he stated that they came out of nowhere and that sun may have played a role. Wow how often have we heard that one, the difference if this had been a car would have been a totaled truck and maybe a dead driver. At least he didn't say I thought that I could beat them. I do think that the cyclists should be ticketed for breaking the law as well as motorists. We need a definition for stopping. Motorcyclists have to have one foot on the ground, so they drag one as they roll through the stop. Good rides can stop while standing on the pedals. One thing that I have noticed on the rural roads is how little traffic there is. I can ride for hours and be passed by a handful of cars. But yet is bikes impeding traffic. What about tractors which travel slow than bikes sometimes and they are harder to get around? What about big groups of motorcycles? And for causing problems what about the sport motorcycles racing around on those roads and the cars/ trucks that must be speeding and fail to move over when a bike gets in their way?
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m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y
Forumite
Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:39 pm Post subject:
lardheppus wrote:
rc_collins wrote:
Do me a favor and just look at the photo on top of http://www.springcityspinners.org Does that photo honestly look like a group of bike riders being safe? They are a pack with 4 across at one point. Also in the background is a car that I can only assume wants to pass. Nothing about that photo tells me that those cyclists care about the safety of themselves and the other motorized traffic on that road.It could be the car is associated with the group of cyclists. It's not uncommon on organized club rides to provide a sag wagon to pick up stragglers and assist those with mechanical failures. Then again, it could be aliens pretending to be a car so they can give the cyclists a rectal probe. It's really impossible to tell even with the picture blown up to ten times normal size. So, why is it that people get so upset over a few moments delay caused by cyclists that they want to kill people? Why are they in such a hurry?Well, lardheppus: the primary problem is that they all have myopia and can’t imagine anyone ever needing to get somewhere without it taking three times longer than it should. crazy huh?
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m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y
Forumite
Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:42 pm Post subject:
dproadie wrote:
I am astonished by the response from the hate bike crowd (I don't hate bikes but...). This tragic incident has affected all involved including the ride organizers. I bicycle, motorcycle, and drive cars. I think that everyone should spend some time on the 2 wheeled transportation. It teaches you to be way more observant and defensive. The reality is that drivers don't see you (motorcycles are required to have lights and how many either hit or are hit by left turning vehicles?) Sure bicyclists screw up or break the law and a lot of times it is devastating. In this case it would appear that the driver is at fault (the investigation is not complete). He will probably be ticketed for inattentive driving or failure to yield and that will be it based on how similar cases have been handle here and in other States (remember this is Iowa County not Dane). Trying to defend the driver when he stated that they came out of nowhere and that sun may have played a role. Wow how often have we heard that one, the difference if this had been a car would have been a totaled truck and maybe a dead driver. At least he didn't say I thought that I could beat them. I do think that the cyclists should be ticketed for breaking the law as well as motorists. We need a definition for stopping. Motorcyclists have to have one foot on the ground, so they drag one as they roll through the stop. Good rides can stop while standing on the pedals. One thing that I have noticed on the rural roads is how little traffic there is. I can ride for hours and be passed by a handful of cars. But yet is bikes impeding traffic. What about tractors which travel slow than bikes sometimes and they are harder to get around? What about big groups of motorcycles? And for causing problems what about the sport motorcycles racing around on those roads and the cars/ trucks that must be speeding and fail to move over when a bike gets in their way?I know someone isn't calling me part of the "hate bicycle crowd" after the 30 pages on the wilson/baldwin murder.
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jimatmadison
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Joined: 15 Nov 2008
Total posts: 12
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:00 pm Post subject: please
jkramer wrote:
If the name-calling doesn't stop, I will lock this thread.Please shut this down. It's disgraceful, and has been from the first couple posts. Some articles shouldn't have posts allowed due to the nature of the article, and the inability of some people to be civilized in light of tragedy.
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Rather than working to pass the law about dooring a law should have been written about practicable. It is not practical to pull over and stop everytime someone wants to pass unless you are on the rural roads with almost no traffic. This would render bicycles worthless as a form of transportation, and we're worried about trains. Bike trails are not the solution. They are not paved, plowed, designed for speed, or enough of them. I would be in favor of building a parallel transportation system for bikes only much like the Netherlands has. Who cares how much it costs or how much land is needed think of the jobs.
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lardheppus
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Joined: 15 May 2007
Total posts: 10137
Location: 301 Troy Drive
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:09 pm Post subject:
m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y wrote:
lardheppus wrote:
So, why is it that people get so upset over a few moments delay caused by cyclists that they want to kill people? Why are they in such a hurry?Well, lardheppus: the primary problem is that they all have myopia and can’t imagine anyone ever needing to get somewhere without it taking three times longer than it should. crazy huh?Crazy to want to kill people in order to save a minute on your commute? Yep.
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CapitolKid
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Joined: 12 Jul 2009
Total posts: 10
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:17 pm Post subject: Re: I don't cycle, but...
RD1953 wrote:
Cemetaries are FULL of people who had the right away and thought that meant you don't have to be defensive! It's NOT what you do - Its what other people do that will kill you! RD53How do you know? Did you look up every single cause of death in even one cemetary?
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lburt
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Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Total posts: 9
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:18 pm Post subject: Re: Stop blaming others and take responsibility...EVERYONE!
m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y wrote:
lburt wrote:
I write this as a driver, bicyclist and motorcyclist who is reminding himself that unlike everyone else who posts on these forums he is not a perfect driver. Almost every day I read about accidents, some pedestrian, some with motorcycle, many cars, some bikes, many of which in the last several days have ended in a death. With each of the stories are a litany of forum postings complaining that bikes cause accidents, motorcycles, cars, etc. I wish people would stop using every death as a reason to point fingers at other groups and stop guessing and speculating at the causes of any particular acciden. We all need to take an increased level of responsibility for our safety and the safety of others no matter how they are traveling. Probably the biggest factor that leads to accidents is just not taking the time to be careful and courteous enough to others. In most accidents people share the responsibility to some degree and if we all just care a bit more about what goes on, tragedies can be avoided. Please make a point to look just a bit harder for other travelers, slow down where appropriate, give someone a break rather than force an issue on the road unnecessarily.There was a time when a triple homicide would go completely untouched here. I like it better this way. If you don’t want to read people's discussions then go blind yourself with fire irons. Manson- You completely misinterpret my point. I never once suggested we be blind to the things that go on around us and in fact my point was quite the opposite. All I did suggest is that EVERYONE take a bit more caution rather than point the finger everywhere else and keep safety foremost in mind so that there are less accidents to read about. I suppose I should have realized that words of reason and measure would be misunderstood here.
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glen
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Joined: 14 May 2007
Total posts: 402
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:27 pm Post subject: Re: Spring City Spinners are idiots!
rc_collins wrote:
FIND THE TRAILS! TAXPAYERS BOUGHT THEM FOR EVERYONES SAFTY!Lots of pedestrians think that fast bikers should stay off the trails, because they're too dangerous.
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CapitolKid
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Joined: 12 Jul 2009
Total posts: 10
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:35 pm Post subject:
Despite this tragic accident, I find that Madison and parts of Wisconsin is a bicyclists paradise. I have yet to read or hear about an accident with deadly results on the many bike trails in town or throughout the state. One can ride for miles and miles on a "rails to trails" without encountering another soul. And just about every time I ride on the town streets drivers are very patient and courteous with me. Even sharing the street and slowing down or stopping when I put my hand out to direct traffic. Even so, ya gotta be careful and let the death monsters have the right of way when it's appropriate.
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jlk74
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Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Total posts: 18
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:36 pm Post subject:
Lburt - I think you've made a very good point but, unfortunately, I think there's always a certain crowd who's looking for the opportunity to be nasty regardless of the topic. I applaud bicyclists for doing something that's good for them and good for the environment. I'll also send a genuine plea to be very careful and attentive to traffic patterns when riding on country roads. One of my family members was killed as a pre-teen when riding her bike on a busy road. I take Whalen Rd. almost daily and am terrified that I'll accidentally hit a bicyclist even though I watch what I'm doing and drive safely. The issue is that there is NO shoulder and it's hilly with 50 mph limit and a lot of traffic. So... you could be going up a hill and need to come to nearly a complete stop behind a bicycle who's having difficulty getting up the hill and you certainly don't want to go around them or you could risk colliding with an oncoming car going up the hill on the opposite side. Same thing for going downhill; there's often a bike just inside the lane just on the other side where you couldn't have seen them a second sooner. Unless, again, you've come to almost a stop at the top of the hill you're going to risk a brush right by them - or worse. I hope to God I'm never in an accident with a bicyclist and will do what I can to prevent it. Cyclists - please know that most of us are just as worried about harming you as you are of being hit. But give serious consideration to the risks of riding on narrow country roads with so much traffic, steep hills and no place to go when cars come by. Best of luck.[/i]
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TheTruthTeller
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Joined: 06 Nov 2008
Total posts: 15
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:47 pm Post subject: I'm an avid cyclist ...
I bike to and from work, and as much as I can outside of that. I have been cycling on the city streets of Madison for over 20 years now and am quite offended at the enormous sense of entitlement held by my fellow bikers in this town. In all my years of riding, I can't count how many times I've watched a significant amount of arrogant bicyclists assume the streets (you know, the things that were built for cars to drive on) as if they own them. I've learned a very important lesson in my 20 some years of riding ... ... it's not worth risking my health or my life simply so I can have a more pleasant bike ride. If a car comes up behind me, you're damn right I stop or get out of their way. I'm on a bike, they are in a car ... of course they have the damn right of way. Is it worth taking a header or having my brain spattered all over the concrete? Of course I'm not in a damn hurry, that's why I'm riding my f*cking bike! Get over it you damn tree huggers, and get the hell out of the way ... otherwise don't complain when a car runs your ass over, no matter whose fault it is.
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Spooner
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Location: Madison
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:18 pm Post subject:
rc_collins wrote:
lardheppus wrote:
I do hope the bicyclist is posthumously cited for failure to yield or inattentive driving (or whatever the authorities can think of) so the 16 year old will be able to get the insurance company to pay to repair his truck.I agree 100%. You damn bikers are idiots on these roads. Face it, they are hardly big enough to have 2 cars pass each other, let alone a giant pack of you jerks. Oh and most of you are jerks too. When i honk to let you know that I want around 1 out of 10 of you flip my off. FOLLOW THE LAW, JERKS! Wisconsin Statute 346.59 (2) The operator of a vehicle moving at a speed so slow as to impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic shall, if practicable, yield the roadway to an overtaking vehicle whenever the operator of the overtaking vehicle gives audible warning with a warning device and shall move at a reasonably increased speed or yield the roadway to overtaking vehicles when directed to do so by a traffic officer.rc, the problem with honking is that we know you're there when you pass us- there is no need to honk if you've made a good decision on going around at a reasonable speed. The encounter can be over safely in a matter of seconds. Honking can scare the heck out of a cyclist because the wind in the ears makes it difficult to hear what's behind you. By honking you run the risk of startling someone, which could cause them to move in one direction or another unexpectedly. When I think of the instances where I felt I was in danger, it would seriously have taken a count of three to five by the motorist to prevent near-disaster. I ride the shoulder, I stop at stop signs as long as or longer than most motorists, and I encourage my groups to stay outside the white line in single file. The most dangerous situations for me have been motorists going around in no-passing zones uphill (both around me and at me while I'm descending), being intentionally buzzed by a motorcyclist who crossed the white line to do so, motorists who go around then slow down to turn right instead of staying behind, and motorists who bolt out of driveways or cross streets to beat an oncoming vehicle. Think of the road rage and greater danger these cases would cause between two motorists. A count of five will ensure everyone gets home safely, or, at the least, ensures the encounter has a positive result for both motorist and bicyclist.
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m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:55 pm Post subject: Re: please
jimatmadison wrote:
jkramer wrote:
If the name-calling doesn't stop, I will lock this thread.Please shut this down. It's disgraceful, and has been from the first couple posts. Some articles shouldn't have posts allowed due to the nature of the article, and the inability of some people to be civilized in light of tragedy.It's funny the way they fail to report the facts of the situation and then make up ficticious instances of name calling....... edit "Jerks" okay well I didn't see it as an insult as much as and expression of someone else’s anti social behavior. “Jerk” just takes fewer words and is therefore a superior word to use Last edited by m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y on Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:02 pm Post subject: Re: Stop blaming others and take responsibility...EVERYONE!
lburt wrote:
m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y wrote:
lburt wrote:
I write this as a driver, bicyclist and motorcyclist who is reminding himself that unlike everyone else who posts on these forums he is not a perfect driver. Almost every day I read about accidents, some pedestrian, some with motorcycle, many cars, some bikes, many of which in the last several days have ended in a death. With each of the stories are a litany of forum postings complaining that bikes cause accidents, motorcycles, cars, etc. I wish people would stop using every death as a reason to point fingers at other groups and stop guessing and speculating at the causes of any particular acciden. We all need to take an increased level of responsibility for our safety and the safety of others no matter how they are traveling. Probably the biggest factor that leads to accidents is just not taking the time to be careful and courteous enough to others. In most accidents people share the responsibility to some degree and if we all just care a bit more about what goes on, tragedies can be avoided. Please make a point to look just a bit harder for other travelers, slow down where appropriate, give someone a break rather than force an issue on the road unnecessarily.There was a time when a triple homicide would go completely untouched here. I like it better this way. If you don’t want to read people's discussions then go blind yourself with fire irons. Manson- You completely misinterpret my point. I never once suggested we be blind to the things that go on around us and in fact my point was quite the opposite. All I did suggest is that EVERYONE take a bit more caution rather than point the finger everywhere else and keep safety foremost in mind so that there are less accidents to read about. I suppose I should have realized that words of reason and measure would be misunderstood here.Blah if you only want the facts of the article rather than the premise of the situation to be the only thing that gets discussed then try reporting the facts of the situation. We’re discussing the premise of what lead to the situation, where later situations might occur, and what needs to be done to avoid them. If you only want a moment of silence for the lost life then stop reading out loud.
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concerned citizen
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Total posts: 157
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:20 pm Post subject:
Warning to cyclists: these people drive automobiles. Ride defensively.
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HartlyNat
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Joined: 11 Jul 2009
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:35 pm Post subject:
I've been thinking of this a lot after reading comments here and elsewhere. It still strikes me how unaware/ignorant people are of the country roads that fill our southern counties. How narrow they are, how hilly, the many twists and turns the inability to see totally well around many turns at this time of year because of vegetation or a field of crops -- sometimes a turn looks totally different only 1 week later if there's been a good rain. And lots of times absolutely no shoulder to rely on if needed. BECAUSE there's no shoulder, sometimes the only spare space you can duck into when surprised is the opposite lane, which is hard to do if traffic is coming the other way. Just as it's apparently unrealistic to say ALL bicyclists should stick to trails, it's unrealistic to infer -- as some have done here -- that normal vehicular traffic needs to slow down more than the 45/55 mph posted speed coming and going to work on these roads, along with the 25/35 or so around each bend. (Or that we should ALL anticipate an accident blocking the road at every curve.) All the more unrealistic with summertime construction clogging up even more backup routes than usual. (A poster elsewhere made it sound like all these little towns are connected by major interstate thoroughfares and wide state highways, so we who are in a slightly bigger hurry should stick to those instead. Where the heck do they hail from? New York City or New Jersey?) Truth is, many of us are juggling one and often two jobs in this economy nowadays, spending far too little time at home with our kids as it is, while somebody on a more leisurely joyride for morning exercise or part of a tour may well have more time to play with. Maybe they can afford to go 35/40 mph as they stop to smell the roses, but nowadays it's a luxury many of us simply don't have. And it's not like the rest of us in a four-wheeled vehicle are ALL going 60 and 70 -- or talking on the phone or reaching for the radio. Anyway: I don't want to pick a fight, but one possible solution has occurred to me as I drive around, even more paranoid than usual of accidentally striking a weaving bicyclist--trying in vain to anticipate whether he's going to speed up or slow down on a given stretch when I simply cannot pass and he does not yield as more considerate farmers do. Hard to anticipate because there's no brake lights to show slowing or cruise control to provide a reasonable degree of consistency of speed, and the bicyclist's much smaller size makes it tremendously difficult to judge the speed. (BTW, pretty soon I'm focusing ALL my nervous attention on such a biker which, in my opinion, is just as distracting as taking a phone call when there's an entire roadway I need to be attentive to.) Maybe it's not enough for bikers to purposely pick little-traveled roads -- not unless they're going to make their whereabouts better known to locals who more or less know what to anticipate when on these side roads they take all the time. If part of a group, they could spread word by posting signs or dropping off flyers at small-town gas stations where they stop to use bathrooms. Since they scout out routes and/or have a car trailing them, maybe pound in a few slapdash roadside signs like the type that announce a garage sale or sweet corn for sale? Or I also keep thinking of how it helps me to be reminded, by more permanent signage, of known deer-crossing areas. At a certain time of year at a certain time of day I know to LOOK for deer anywhere and everywhere in these parts, but in case I'm not 100-percent on guard, the signs are a much-appreciated reminder. A little bit of knowledge of the otherwise unexpected would help a lot. Maybe certain roads can and should have the same kind of signage as those that warn of deer.
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m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y
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Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:16 am Post subject:
Oh yeah, sweet victory! I swayed the non-objective new person (: Love'n'it!
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lardheppus
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Joined: 15 May 2007
Total posts: 10137
Location: 301 Troy Drive
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Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:53 am Post subject:
Spooner wrote:
Honking can scare the heck out of a cyclist because the wind in the ears makes it difficult to hear what's behind you.Odd, I've never had that problem. Except for a hybrid rumming solely on electric, I can usually hear a car from a quarter mile away on a quiet road. Our ears must be shaped differently.
Blah if you only want the facts of the article rather than the premise of the situation to be the only thing that gets discussed then try reporting the facts of the situation. We’re discussing the premise of what lead to the situation, where later situations might occur, and what needs to be done to avoid them. If you only want a moment of silence for the lost life then stop reading out loud.[/quote] Manson- Do you even know how to read? I am not talking about remembering those those who have died. I AM talking about all of us taking some responsibility for safety which is what would help us avoid these things.
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whatajoke
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Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Total posts: 36
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Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:50 am Post subject:
one last thought on the subject who really pays for the road the cyclist or the car and truck hmm me think its car and truck who pay for the road if bikes want to help maybe they should have license and insurance to
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RockHopper
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Joined: 30 Jun 2006
Total posts: 158
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Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:14 am Post subject:
whatajoke wrote:
one last thought on the subject who really pays for the road the cyclist or the car and truck hmm me think its car and truck who pay for the road if bikes want to help maybe they should have license and insurance to68% of local road costs come from property taxes. Trucks and cars need more lane width to operate safely, and they do more damage to the roads due to their weight. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to expect drivers of vehicles requiring more pavement to pay a little extra.
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m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y
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Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:53 am Post subject: Re: Stop blaming others and take responsibility...EVERYONE!
lburt wrote:
m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y wrote:
Blah if you only want the facts of the article rather than the premise of the situation to be the only thing that gets discussed then try reporting the facts of the situation. We’re discussing the premise of what lead to the situation, where later situations might occur, and what needs to be done to avoid them. If you only want a moment of silence for the lost life then stop reading out loud.Manson- Do you even know how to read? I am not talking about remembering those those who have died. I AM talking about all of us taking some responsibility for safety which is what would help us avoid these things.Well in that case I’m saying "you then have a responsibility to not go biking on shoulderless country roads....." Again. And would you please monkey the square block in the square hole and put the quote tags in the right places? k thx
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dabige
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Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:21 am Post subject: Re: Stop blaming others and take responsibility...EVERYONE!
m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y wrote:
And would you please monkey the square block in the square hole and put the quote tags in the right places?Wow, there's a big steaming bowl of irony right there...now who's the one complaining about someone not using the quote function correctly?
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sanity
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Joined: 19 Jan 2007
Total posts: 783
Gender: Unknown
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:30 am Post subject:
Bikers on rural roads, are rude, disrespectful and have a death wish. Tractors, are mindful of traffic, and allow other vehicles to pass. Pickup trucks loaded with farm gear or hay, are mindful of traffic and let others pass. Mailmen going slow are mindful of traffic and let other pass. Semis, and milk trucks going slow are mindful of traffic and let other pass. But the smug biker's think that they own the road, and ride side by side taking a lane, never let you pass. Do they even realize how dangerous their behavior is, probably not. But what bother me the most is when I see the smug bikers in tey fancy bike gear, standing at the bottom of a hill talking, bikes side by side, protruding 3-4 feet into the lane. IDIOTS. I am surprised that so few bikers are killed. It is a testament to the good manners and attentiveness of rural drivers.
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dproadie
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Joined: 12 Jul 2009
Total posts: 4
Gender: Unknown
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:02 am Post subject:
Sanity, have you biked the rural roads? I'll make the blanket statement similar to what has been said about the bikes. The drivers out here always force the bikes off the road or throw objects at the riders. Not quite true but it happens a lot and don't yell back because the in a hurry drivers have been know to take the time to stop and beat up the rider. I think that the paper should do an article where they send some one out to get real numbers about how big a problem this is. I ride in rural Dane county every day and literally there are days where I don't see a car and when I hear one coming up fast I am nervous. I ride the road edge and many times I am passed with significantly less than 3 feet of space. What planet are people on?
Quote:
the courteous farmer pulls overreally, I guess that I'm just unlucky. Think about this if there is no shoulder, no where for the bikes to go, how is a tractor pulling a 12- 20 blade plow going to get off the road or a combine? They are not going to put the tractor in the ditch. Sorry drivers, we all pay for the roads. The gas tax does not collect enough money. They were subsidized in the first place in the intereswt of commerce. They continue to subsidized today. Every 2 years in the federal budget there is a huge outlay for road projects and locally our property taxes fund the roads (it doesn't all go to schools).
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krausj
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Joined: 22 Aug 2005
Total posts: 22
Location: Madison
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:22 am Post subject:
A problem with the rural roads is too many cars driving too fast for conditions. Many of these cars don't have a good reason for driving on these roads as they do not work on farms. This is a result of rural sprawl where people live far from their jobs. To make the roads safer we need to find ways to reduce the number of people living in rural areas. Driving too fast for roads conditions is not justied by claiming a lack of time. An article at http://www.mrsc.org/subjects/planning/rural/daniels.aspx discusses some of the problems of rural sprawl and some solutions. Reducing the speed limits on rural roads to increase trip time would also help as it would encourge people to not live in these areas. Adding extra stop signs would also slow traffic and increase safety at intersections. Another option is to but breaks in the roads similar to that in the Arboretum to prevent cars from driving through.
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sanity
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Joined: 19 Jan 2007
Total posts: 783
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Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:39 am Post subject:
dproadie wrote:
Sanity, have you biked the rural roads? I did once, and came to the conclusion that being alive is pretty cool. I use the bike path now. County roads are narrow, and the bikes create deadly situations. If there is oncoming traffic, it is actually physically impossible to pass bikes safely on many county roads. especially if the bikers decide to take up all or most of the lane. And as always, the smug little bikers from Madison, that invade our rural areas. Are demanding that we the rural motorists not use county roads, and that our lives should be inconvenienced for recreational bike users. We paid for bike paths for you!!! Use them. And yes combines and tractors pull over and let traffic pass whenever they can. Also if they can't farmers usually turn on emergency lights and have a chaser and lead vehicle to move very large equipment.
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RockHopper
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Joined: 30 Jun 2006
Total posts: 158
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Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:23 am Post subject:
NEWSFLASH DRIVERS: By you own repeated admission, there are arrogant bicyclists on rural roads, creating a potential safety hazard with a wide array of behavior at odds with legal use of the road. You are required by law to drive safely given the reality above - that means you need to be slowing down when cresting a hill, making a turn, or in any situation where your visibility in front of you is reduced. It also means paying extra attention to oncoming bike traffic when making a turn - and even... gulp... - waiting to turn if necessary.
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sanity
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Joined: 19 Jan 2007
Total posts: 783
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Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:28 am Post subject:
RockHopper wrote:
NEWSFLASH DRIVERS: By you own repeated admission, there are arrogant bicyclists on rural roads, creating a potential safety hazard with a wide array of behavior at odds with legal use of the road. You are required by law to drive safely given the reality above - that means you need to be slowing down when cresting a hill, making a turn, or in any situation where your visibility in front of you is reduced. It also means paying extra attention to oncoming bike traffic when making a turn - and even... gulp... - waiting to turn if necessary.Same rules apply to bikers!!!! And they do not follow them, that is the problem. Have you as a biker ever pulled over, when there is oncoming traffic, and there is a car behind you?
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RockHopper
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Joined: 30 Jun 2006
Total posts: 158
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Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:32 am Post subject:
sanity wrote:
RockHopper wrote:
NEWSFLASH DRIVERS: By you own repeated admission, there are arrogant bicyclists on rural roads, creating a potential safety hazard with a wide array of behavior at odds with legal use of the road. You are required by law to drive safely given the reality above - that means you need to be slowing down when cresting a hill, making a turn, or in any situation where your visibility in front of you is reduced. It also means paying extra attention to oncoming bike traffic when making a turn - and even... gulp... - waiting to turn if necessary.Same rules apply to bikers!!!! And they do not follow them, that is the problem. Have you as a biker ever pulled over, when there is oncoming traffic, and there is a car behind you?Yes indeed I have pulled over to let traffic pass, in many situations. I am one of the most courteous , law abiding (and law aware) bicyclists out there. The problem is not with me. On the other hand, GMAC surveys reveal year after year that motorists are a bit foggy on how they are supposed to behave when sharing the road with non-motorized traffic. when bicycles and cars crash in Madison, Portland Or, and many other cities, drivers are cited as at-fault by a factor of 3:1. Therefore, it is imperative that drivers put in an effort to refresh their memory when it comes to sharing the road with bicyclists.
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swell
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Joined: 02 May 2008
Total posts: 635
Gender: Male
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:44 am Post subject: Re: Stop blaming others and take responsibility...EVERYONE!
lburt wrote:
I write this as a driver, bicyclist and motorcyclist who is reminding himself that unlike everyone else who posts on these forums he is not a perfect driver. Almost every day I read about accidents, some pedestrian, some with motorcycle, many cars, some bikes, many of which in the last several days have ended in a death. With each of the stories are a litany of forum postings complaining that bikes cause accidents, motorcycles, cars, etc. I wish people would stop using every death as a reason to point fingers at other groups and stop guessing and speculating at the causes of any particular acciden. We all need to take an increased level of responsibility for our safety and the safety of others no matter how they are traveling. Probably the biggest factor that leads to accidents is just not taking the time to be careful and courteous enough to others. In most accidents people share the responsibility to some degree and if we all just care a bit more about what goes on, tragedies can be avoided. Please make a point to look just a bit harder for other travelers, slow down where appropriate, give someone a break rather than force an issue on the road unnecessarily.Well said, ibert!
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concerned citizen
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Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Total posts: 157
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Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:17 am Post subject:
Second warning to cyclists: these people likely breed. The good news is that they likely have small families, since they must not be Catholic. The Pope says: The "Ten Commandments" for drivers, as listed in the document, are: I. You shall not kill. II. The road shall be for you a means of communion between people and not of mortal harm. III. Courtesy, uprightness and prudence will help you deal with unforeseen events. IV. Be charitable and help your neighbor in need, especially victims of accidents. V. Cars shall not be for you an expression of power and domination and an occasion of sin. VI. Charitably convince the young and not so young not to drive when they are not in a fitting condition to do so. VII. Support the families of accident victims. VIII. Bring guilty motorists and their victims together, at the appropriate time, so that they can undergo the liberating experience of forgiveness. IX. On the road, protect the more vulnerable party. X. Feel responsible toward others.
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madvisitor
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Joined: 13 Jul 2009
Total posts: 1
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Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:32 am Post subject: insensitive comments
This story has nothing to do w/ irresponsible cyclists. Cars aren't required to have driving lights during the day...so I'm not sure where a bike law would help. If this inexperienced driver didn't see the group of cyclist (probably all wearing bright colored gear), I'm sure a little flashing bike light in the middle day wouldn't have helped save this man. This is a story about an inexperience driver not yielding the right of way to a cyclist...which is the sad story more often than not. This about is a reputable business man in the Milwk area, who has a family and friends and the only comments you can contribute are insensitive ones about the time you saw a cyclist not making a complete stop at a stop sign...pathetic! Have some sympathy for this poor man's grieving friends and family. Even the most defensively driving cyclist doesn't stand much of a chance against a large vehicle when going a reasonable speed on a rural road.
whatajoke wrote:
one last thought on the subject who really pays for the road the cyclist or the car and truck hmm me think its car and truck who pay for the road if bikes want to help maybe they should have license and insurance toYeah, because it's a known fact that if you see someone on a bike that is proof that they don't own a car. What a joke indeed.
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natew_usa
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Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Total posts: 15
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Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:50 pm Post subject:
whatajoke wrote:
i cant remember the number of time i was driving my car and was buzzed by a cyclist and he almost got run over because he thought he was bigger then me. didn't use his brain or common sense. one tire can kill you. a bike cant kill a car think about what you do on bikes dont always blame the car most time its your fault when you dead does it matters whos fault it really is you dead. cant change that. might be able to punish the driver but you still dead. maybe they should make all bikes have lights on them so you can see them better. cars have to have driving lights now a days so people can see them better. maybe they need to do that for bikes to. if your going to be riding a bike on highways where speeds are 55 and min speed is 45 you should have flashing lights like all other vehicles, or big slow moving vehicle signs on the back, bike dont have to follow the law. hello. look up what any other vehicle has to do if it drives down the road more then 10 mph under the top speed and tell me bikes have to follow the law. one last thought on the subject who really pays for the road the cyclist or the car and truck hmm i think its car and truck who pay for the road if bikes want to help maybe they should have license and insurance to. maybe they could have classes to teach them how to ride a bike. and maybe a a user tax sence they dont buy fuel and put money into the road building fundThis is the dumbest post I have ever seen on here. Bicyclist should pay to use the road? Seriously man did you ride the short bus to school??? This was an organized ride called the Insane Terrain Challenge. I was a rider on it!!! The event had signs up all over that said "Warning Bike Event Ahead" they did everything to prevent this. So not that weather or not cyclist paying taxes to ride on the road has anything to do with this, because it doesn't and I have no clue why you would bring this up now, all of the riders that were out there drove to the event. So they already pay for the roads.......... I was wearing a orange jersey that day so I hope the heck traffic saw me. Not only that but flashing lights are not going to do a darn thing in the middle of the day! I wasn't there at the accident but I remember Clay Hill Road having a few down hills to it, this could be that the rider was coming down hill and then had the truck pull out in front of him. I just have to laugh how non-riders get on here and think they have all the answers. Flashing lights in the middle of the day on a road bike.................right man right! Paying taxes on roads we already pay for........ Maybe you should know what you are talking about before making a comment!
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lardheppus
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Joined: 15 May 2007
Total posts: 10137
Location: 301 Troy Drive
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Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:05 pm Post subject:
Ordinarily , when a young man violates traffi laws and kills someone, the vitriol on the forum is directed at the person who commited homocide by negligent use of a motor vehicle, not the innocent victim. What's going on here, are bicyclists held in lower regard than murderers?
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love2bike2
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Joined: 13 Jul 2009
Total posts: 1
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Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:28 pm Post subject:
This circumstance is tragic for all involved. The cyclist, Mr. Belonger, did not blow a stop sign, He wasn't speeding. He was enjoying a beautiful morning riding with some friends. He was on a public road intended to be shared between motor vehicles, farm equipment, bicycles. He was wearing a helmet. He wasn't speeding. The grade of the downhill he was on was very moderate. He may have been going at speeds between 25 and 35 mph. Is this too fast for a road bike? The young man driving the vehicle passed a neon orange Caution Bike Event Ahead sign LESS THAN 1/4 of a mile prior to his turning left into a driveway. He was also going against the grain of the cyclists. He would have passed an estimated 15-25 cyclists prior to making his left hand turn. At 8:30 am, where is the sun on the horizon? I personally drove this section of Clay Hill Road yesterday. There was no vegetation obstructing a motor vehiclist's view. It's so exceptionally unfortunate, but this young man made a poor poor decision. He turned when he needed to yield to traffic. He broke the law, and in the process, he took a man's life. A healthy vital man. I would agree with many that bicycles should be licensed. Fees for licensing could go toward creating wide shoulders on these country roads that are so very appealing for us cyclists. The splendor and beauty of the countryside rawly experienced on a bike cannot be duplicated. We ride to be healthy, to be social, to better our lives, to enjoy our hobby, to set and attain challenging physical goals. This cyclist is not at fault for riding on a country road. Patience, sharing, respecting one another on public roads is what we need to demand from each other. The roads do not belong soley to motor vehicles. All other issues aside, we lost a fellow cyclist on Saturday. An accident that coudl have been prevented. My heart goes out to the families involved.
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lardheppus
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Joined: 15 May 2007
Total posts: 10137
Location: 301 Troy Drive
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Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:39 pm Post subject:
love2bike2 wrote:
This circumstance is tragic for all involved. The cyclist, Mr. Belonger, did not blow a stop sign, He wasn't speeding. He was enjoying a beautiful morning riding with some friends. He was on a public road intended to be shared between motor vehicles, farm equipment, bicycles. He was wearing a helmet. He wasn't speeding. The grade of the downhill he was on was very moderate. He may have been going at speeds between 25 and 35 mph. Is this too fast for a road bike? The young man driving the vehicle passed a neon orange Caution Bike Event Ahead sign LESS THAN 1/4 of a mile prior to his turning left into a driveway. He was also going against the grain of the cyclists. He would have passed an estimated 15-25 cyclists prior to making his left hand turn. At 8:30 am, where is the sun on the horizon? I personally drove this section of Clay Hill Road yesterday. There was no vegetation obstructing a motor vehiclist's view. It's so exceptionally unfortunate, but this young man made a poor poor decision. He turned when he needed to yield to traffic. He broke the law, and in the process, he took a man's life. A healthy vital man. I would agree with many that bicycles should be licensed. Fees for licensing could go toward creating wide shoulders on these country roads that are so very appealing for us cyclists. The splendor and beauty of the countryside rawly experienced on a bike cannot be duplicated. We ride to be healthy, to be social, to better our lives, to enjoy our hobby, to set and attain challenging physical goals. This cyclist is not at fault for riding on a country road. Patience, sharing, respecting one another on public roads is what we need to demand from each other. The roads do not belong soley to motor vehicles. All other issues aside, we lost a fellow cyclist on Saturday. An accident that coudl have been prevented. My heart goes out to the families involved.An accident, or negligent homocide?
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shadowdogs
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Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Total posts: 2
Gender: Unknown
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: insensitive comments
madvisitor wrote:
This story has nothing to do w/ irresponsible cyclists. Cars aren't required to have driving lights during the day...so I'm not sure where a bike law would help. If this inexperienced driver didn't see the group of cyclist (probably all wearing bright colored gear), I'm sure a little flashing bike light in the middle day wouldn't have helped save this man. This is a story about an inexperience driver not yielding the right of way to a cyclist...which is the sad story more often than not. This about is a reputable business man in the Milwk area, who has a family and friends and the only comments you can contribute are insensitive ones about the time you saw a cyclist not making a complete stop at a stop sign...pathetic! Have some sympathy for this poor man's grieving friends and family. Even the most defensively driving cyclist doesn't stand much of a chance against a large vehicle when going a reasonable speed on a rural road.It took reading eight pages of blathering nonsense posts to find this one that restores my hope that there's still some thinking people out there. Well said. At least his last ride was on beautiful day in a beautiful area.
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m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y
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Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: Stop blaming others and take responsibility...EVERYONE!
dabige wrote:
m.a.n.s.o.n.f.a.m.i.l.y wrote:
And would you please monkey the square block in the square hole and put the quote tags in the right places?My bunghole still hurts from the last time you paraphrased my scribbling while using quote tags.Get over it. I’m not blaming him for accurately paraphrasing with quote tags. I’m blaming him for not using them. k thx cry more.
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enufalready
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Joined: 01 Jul 2009
Total posts: 15
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Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:48 pm Post subject:
whatajoke wrote:
i cant remember the number of time i was driving my car and was buzzed by a cyclist and he almost got run over because he thought he was bigger then me. didn't use his brain or common sense. one tire can kill you. a bike cant kill a car think about what you do on bikes dont always blame the car most time its your fault when you dead does it matters whos fault it really is you dead. cant change that. might be able to punish the driver but you still dead. maybe they should make all bikes have lights on them so you can see them better. cars have to have driving lights now a days so people can see them better. maybe they need to do that for bikes to. if your going to be riding a bike on highways where speeds are 55 and min speed is 45 you should have flashing lights like all other vehicles, or big slow moving vehicle signs on the back, bike dont have to follow the law. hello. look up what any other vehicle has to do if it drives down the road more then 10 mph under the top speed and tell me bikes have to follow the law. one last thought on the subject who really pays for the road the cyclist or the car and truck hmm i think its car and truck who pay for the road if bikes want to help maybe they should have license and insurance to. maybe they could have classes to teach them how to ride a bike. and maybe a a user tax sence they dont buy fuel and put money into the road building fundI can't believe you edited this post 4 times, and it's still a bunch of jibberish!
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wiscokid
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Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Total posts: 3
Gender: Unknown
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:48 pm Post subject:
There have been a few people who have touched on this, but I want to take a minute to stress the importance of PUBLIC EDUCATION when it comes motorized and non-motorized vehicles sharing the road. I just started biking to and from work every day, and try to bike as much as possible elsewhere, but I am also a motorist. I am learning the rules of the road when it comes to biking, and have realized that I was not as aware of them as I should have been when I was solely driving. I have only been biking quite a bit for the past few weeks, and have encountered some extremely "cocky" bike riders. When it comes to bike vs. car, I am not taking my chances. I think it's great that we have so many bikers in and around Madison, and I am happy to be one of them. But the reality is that there will be cars, and there will be bikes, so we need to find a way to coexist. I think a lot of this comes out of a lack of information and clarity on the rules when it comes to cars and bikes on the road. Yes, this information can be found if one takes the time to look, but couldn't we make it more readily available? Especially in an area with such a high concentration of bicyclists... Also, I have a friend who bikes in the country around Madison quite a bit and has told me stories of motorists throwing things at him. I thought he was making it up...unbelievable, and unacceptable!
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lardheppus
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Joined: 15 May 2007
Total posts: 10137
Location: 301 Troy Drive
Gender: Unknown
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:58 pm Post subject:
wiscokid wrote:
Also, I have a friend who bikes in the country around Madison quite a bit and has told me stories of motorists throwing things at him. I thought he was making it up...unbelievable, and unacceptable!It's usually nearly empty beer cans. Drivers seem to have an ample supply of those.
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sitemod_atlas
moderator
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:01 pm Post subject:
Locked temporarily.
Posted by Attorney Clayton Griessmeyer-Wisconsin Bicycle Accident Lawyer
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